Camp Holloway Discussion Forum Archive 04 - 01/01/04 to 02/10/06

Re: How does Bush stack up versus previous preside

What an amazing set of distortions, falsehoods, and selective omissions!

"FDR led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did."

Japan certainly did attack the United States on December 7, 1941 -- and then four days later Germany declared war on the United States:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/judunite.htm
http://www.google.com/search?&as_epq=germany-declared-war-on-the-united-states

The United States responded by declaring war against Germany, and that declaration even mentions Germany's declaration of war:

"Congressional Declaration of War on Germany, December 11, 1941:

"Declaring that a state of war exists between the Government of Germany and the government and the people of the United States and making provision to prosecute the same.

"Whereas the Government of Germany has formally declared war against the government and the people of the United States of America:

"Therefore, be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, that the state of war between the United States and the Government of Germany which has thus been thrust upon the United States is hereby formally declared; and the President is hereby authorized and directed to employ the entire naval and military forces of the government to carry on war against the Government of Germany; and to bring the conflict to a successful termination, all of the resources of the country are hereby pledged by the Congress of the United States."

But you think FDR was responsible for this? He made poor Japan and Germany declare war against the United States first, helpless victims of his control?

"Truman finished that war and started one in Korea"

Yet history reports that the North Koreans started it on June 25, 1950, when they launched a surprise attack on South Korea, even taking Seoul:

http://helmi.home.pages.at/mash/english/history.html

"North Korea never attacked us."

All those American soldiers who died defending South Korea just committed suicide, right? Because the poor innocent North Koreans never attacked them!

"John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962."

Do I really have to explain how utterly false this claim is?

Kennedy had nothing to do with starting the Vietnam conflict.

The Pentagon records the Vietnam War's starting date as November 1, 1955.

Eisenhower sent US military there, before Kennedy became President.

Kennedy was elected in 1960, and actually took office in January 1961.

Whenever you get around to actually studying history, or even (shock!) visiting the Vietnam War Memorial in Washington DC, look up the names of Dale Buis and Chester Ovnand, who were killed by Viet Cong guerrillas on July 8, 1959, in Bien Hoa, Quang Tri province, South Vietnam.

(Look on the Wall at Panel 1-E, Row 1; they're the first names listed.)

Though I must admit there's some remarkable historical ignorance out there. The website for Shuttle commander Eileen Collins has her saying, as part of her recollections of growing up, "Also, of course, the Vietnam War started in the late '60s."

http://www.ci.elmira.ny.us/history/eileen_collins.html

So I suppose if you were just growing up in the 1960s, and only became aware of the Vietnam War then, you might think that's when it started.

"Vietnam never attacked us."

Oh no, certainly not, Buis and Ovnand simply choked on their popcorn?!.

Not to mention all the tailgate-party drinking that soldiers succumbed to during the Siege of Khe Sanh, where Max Cleland lost three limbs -- as Ann Coulter claims he went there to "have a few beers with friends"?!

And all the other drinking deaths during a certain Tet celebration?!....

"Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent"

I notice you're not mentioning NATO. It's NATO that went in there.

"He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan"

I'm happy to say that Richard Clarke debunked this thoroughly in his book "Against All Enemies" -- and so did the National Commission on Terrorism. There's a lot of history you just don't know.

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/911rpt/32304dplmcyrpt.pdf

Sudan did not offer Osama to the US. The US would have accepted him.

"and did nothing."

What he did against Osama got him accused by Republicans of "wagging the dog".

It was the Republicans who didn't think Osama was a real threat, which is why they did nothing about him once they got the Presidency.

"Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions."

Yes, and Clinton managed to block many of those attacks, but you didn't know that either, did you?

Foreign terrorist attacks averted by the Clinton administration:

"Attempts to blow up the Holland tunnel, the Los Angeles airport, to blow up planes flying to the Philippines, an attempt on the Pope's life, an attempt to blow up the biggest hotel in Jordan over the Millennium weekend, to destroy a Christian site in the Holy Land, to plant bombs in cities in the Northwest and the Northeast, and many others."
-- http://www.truthout.org/docs_01/11.10A.Clinton.htm (from 11/07/01)

Also see http://clinton3.nara.gov/WH/New/html/19980522-4986.html (1998)

The 1995 report "US Initiatives Against International Organized Crime" (copy at http://www.fas.org/irp/news/1995/48488876-48494350.htm ) included:

* Arrested and brought back to the U.S. to stand trial terrorists hiding in Nigeria, Pakistan, the Philippines, Jordan, and Egypt.
* Made swift arrests following both of the major terrorist incidents that have taken place in the U.S. (World Trade Center and Oklahoma City).
* Broken up two major attacks on the U.S. that were about to take place, before they could happen (New York: UN and Holland tunnel; Manila: US flag 747s)

As CNN reported ( http://fyi.cnn.com/2001/LAW/05/10/embassy.bombings.01 ) :

"In the 1995 terrorism trial over a failed plot to blow up five New York City landmarks, the jury deliberated seven days before returning guilty verdicts against Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and nine others.

"The trial lasted eight months as evidence was presented about the plot targeting the U.N. General Assembly building, the New York FBI building, the Lincoln Tunnel, the Holland Tunnel and the George Washington Bridge."

Also see http://www.cnn.com/US/9609/05/terror.trial/index.html .

The International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism (home page: http://www.ict.org.il/institute/frame.htm ) details, among other arrests, in an article from 09/17/01 ( http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=385 ):

"The planner of the WTC operation, the Palestinian Ramzi Youssef, escaped arrest in 1993 and in 1994 devised a plot to plant bombs abroad twelve U.S. airliners operating in the Far East. In a trial run, the group exploded a bomb aboard a Philippine airliner, killing one passenger. These plans were discovered when Youssef flew to the Philippines, where he prepared the assassination of the Pope. Youssef was later caught and extradited from Pakistan to the U.S. where he was sentenced to life in prison.
...
"In December 1999, an Algerian, Ahmed Ressam was arrested while trying to smuggle explosives and detonators into the U.S. from Canada, and a plot to bomb the Los Angeles airport was foiled. Ressam's arrest led to the discovery of more Algerian terrorists and their supporters: Abdelmajid Dahoumane, indicted along with Ressam; Mokhtar Haouari, an Algerian accused of providing money and support for the attack on the airport; Hamid Aich, an Algerian arrested briefly in Ireland, then released; Mohambedou Ould Slahi, a Mauritanian who might link the Algerians directly to bin Laden."

"In the two years since terrorists attacked us, President Bush has"

... *still* not caught Osama bin Laden...

"liberated two countries,"

Iraq is "liberated"? That must be news to the Iraqis.

A PBS reporter in Iraq (on Friday, April 9) quoted a Sunni Imam as saying:

"This is no longer an uprising; it is Jihad. We are no longer Sunnis and Shi'ites; we are Muslims. No matter what the United States does on June 30, we will keep fighting until we have driven all foreigners out of Iraq."

Well, George W. Bush did say that he would be a uniter, not a divider....

But what does that have to do with terrorists attacking us?

"We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in Sept. 11."
-- George W. Bush, September 17, 2003.

(Reuters article archived at http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0918-03.htm )

After Pearl Harbor, should FDR have attacked Jamaica or the Bahamas, and then claimed it was an effective response to the Pearl Harbor attack?

Man, the author of this delusionary tripe doesn't even live in the real world.

Another reason not to believe every email you get.

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Re: How does Bush stack up versus previous preside
Re: How does Bush stack up versus previous preside
Re: How does Bush stack up versus previous preside
Re: How does Bush stack up versus previous preside
Re: How does Bush stack up versus previous preside
Re: How does Bush stack up versus previous preside
Re: How does Bush stack up versus previous preside
Re: How does Bush stack up versus previous preside